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Nose up, level or dow

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20 Feb 2018 @ 09:04:47 am
Elleebee
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Morning all.
i know the convention is nose slightly down when towing. i have a new vehicle and i think the nose is slightly up. i towed 750km this weekend and it was the best tow i've had.
would you suggest a drop-plate to make the nose slightly down or leave well alone? please see the pictures.
also if you guys dont mind please answer in English as my Afrikaans is not great.

Thanks
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20 Feb 2018 @ 09:06:55 am
Elleebee
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please see a little further down for pictures
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20 Feb 2018 @ 09:53:29 am
ELU
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For a minute there I thought somebody was using pic's of my combination (Grey/silver Chev TB with Palma!!) Then I realised it is your set-up...... I also have a grey/silver TB and Palma 20056 model and enjoy both of them to the utmost!!!

Your setup and tow levelling looks good to me! Another important factor is the weight on your Chev's towball - as long as that is nice & heavy (within specs), then you should not experience any problems like 'fish-tailing' or aka tail wagging!! As long as the towball weight is not too low, indicating heavy rear caravan which could result in bad handling and/or fishtailing etc...

You have a great (very, very) tow vehicle and Palma has low CG therefore I would leave as is.  Might have a scrape or two on the rear steadies when going through a ditch, but if you remember beforehand, you can carefully (and slowly) negotiate that scraping to the minimum

I trust you enjoyed the Trailblazer's towing power (torque) and if diesel, this comes in at very low revs!!

i just completed 6 000km towing through Botswana and Namibia with my combination and thoroughly enjoyed it!!  The TB is a very powerfull but super comfy monster for towing!!!

 

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20 Feb 2018 @ 09:59:23 am
Hurricane
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Normal convention is slightly nose down or at least horizontally level (and of course correct weight distribution; so take car when packing). Nose up can cause the van to sway. You may have had a stable tow, but does the vehicle have a sway control system? If so maybe that helped. Despite this I will still opt for a slight nose down, if you get a drop plate get one of sufficient thickness (visit your local Camp World, they sell the ones by Trapezium). If you keep on towing nose up you may experience the wonders of physics when two big 22 wheeler trucks pass you from the front one after the other and that van suddenly turns into a pendulum!
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20 Feb 2018 @ 10:03:59 am
Elleebee
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For a minute there I thought somebody was using pic's of my combination (Grey/silver Chev TB with Palma!!) Then I realised it is your set-up...... I also have a grey/silver TB and Palma 20056 model and enjoy both of them to the utmost!!!

Your setup and tow levelling looks good to me! Another important factor is the weight on your Chev's towball - as long as that is nice & heavy (within specs), then you should not experience any problems like 'fish-tailing' or aka tail wagging!! As long as the towball weight is not too low, indicating heavy rear caravan which could result in bad handling and/or fishtailing etc...

You have a great (very, very) tow vehicle and Palma has low CG therefore I would leave as is.  Might have a scrape or two on the rear steadies when going through a ditch, but if you remember beforehand, you can carefully (and slowly) negotiate that scraping to the minimum

I trust you enjoyed the Trailblazer's towing power (torque) and if diesel, this comes in at very low revs!!

i just completed 6 000km towing through Botswana and Namibia with my combination and thoroughly enjoyed it!!  The TB is a very powerfull but super comfy monster for towing!!!

 

best tow vehicle i have had. it is diesel. i use a trapezium and i am careful how i pack - so towed as straight as an arrow al 12l/100km. i was duly impressed as this was my first tow with the vehicle.

thanks for the input. i am tempted to ignore conventional wisdom of nose dow and leave things as they are
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20 Feb 2018 @ 10:05:23 am
Elleebee
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Normal convention is slightly nose down or at least horizontally level (and of course correct weight distribution; so take car when packing). Nose up can cause the van to sway. You may have had a stable tow, but does the vehicle have a sway control system? If so maybe that helped. Despite this I will still opt for a slight nose down, if you get a drop plate get one of sufficient thickness (visit your local Camp World, they sell the ones by Trapezium). If you keep on towing nose up you may experience the wonders of physics when two big 22 wheeler trucks pass you from the front one after the other and that van suddenly turns into a pendulum!
i have a trapezium
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20 Feb 2018 @ 11:27:37 am
HM
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best tow vehicle i have had. it is diesel. i use a trapezium and i am careful how i pack - so towed as straight as an arrow al 12l/100km. i was duly impressed as this was my first tow with the vehicle.

thanks for the input. i am tempted to ignore conventional wisdom of nose dow and leave things as they are

My advice is, don't mess with something that works perfectly.

 

The Happy Campers.
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20 Feb 2018 @ 13:03:58 pm
Danie-SLK
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May you enjoy the Trailblazer for a long time and always great to hear of such a stable combination.

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20 Feb 2018 @ 13:53:15 pm
OOM JEEP
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I think nose up put more strain on the tow ball and the latch on the coupler.
I might be dangerous when in a sudden dead stop situation.
Its only my 2cent.
I love camping all year round
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20 Feb 2018 @ 13:58:30 pm
Elleebee
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thank you for all the responses. i should have clarified that the nose-up is only possible by 1 notch on a drop plate.
i think on my next trip i will use a drop plate and see how it goes.
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20 Feb 2018 @ 14:14:09 pm
OOM JEEP
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thank you for all the responses. i should have clarified that the nose-up is only possible by 1 notch on a drop plate.
i think on my next trip i will use a drop plate and see how it goes.

Remember to get the +- 22 mm thick dropplate and to use the proper bolts and nuts with the high tensile (8.8) the normal bolts are a no-go for sure. And make sure to fasten it tight but not over the limits where the thread will be stretch. Stainless (8.8) is also good but stainless does,nt like to be over tighten.
My 2 cent.
I love camping all year round
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20 Feb 2018 @ 15:34:29 pm
Elleebee
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Remember to get the +- 22 mm thick dropplate and to use the proper bolts and nuts with the high tensile (8.8) the normal bolts are a no-go for sure. And make sure to fasten it tight but not over the limits where the thread will be stretch. Stainless (8.8) is also good but stainless does,nt like to be over tighten.
My 2 cent.
spoke to Len at Trapezium. he says the 16mm willo be fine (i only need the 6 hole) - Oom Jeep - would you go along with that - plust the 8.8 bolts and lock nuts?
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20 Feb 2018 @ 16:05:15 pm
OOM JEEP
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Its oky, but NOT with the 12mm one. I saw n lot of these plates bent. Still think while you invest, try the thicker one, but the 16 mm will do if you go one step down.
I love camping all year round
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20 Feb 2018 @ 16:08:10 pm
OOM JEEP
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Mine.
I love camping all year round
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20 Feb 2018 @ 16:12:14 pm
Elleebee
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the bigger one is an 8 hole. my car does not have the standard towbar fitting - it has the Thule and only has 1 set of holes. i also use the Trapezium Len says that for my combination the 16mm will do. there is no 20mm in 6 hole. and absolutely no one except Roadque in Pretoria has a 16mm 6 hole so i will get one there.


thank you all very much for your input
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20 Feb 2018 @ 18:05:04 pm
Jan Meyer
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spoke to Len at Trapezium. he says the 16mm willo be fine (i only need the 6 hole) - Oom Jeep - would you go along with that - plust the 8.8 bolts and lock nuts?

Johan, omtrent die "high tensile" bout. In my opleiding is ons geleer om elektriese "busbars" met high tensile bolt's vas te maak omdat jy hulle meer kan torgue. Dan is ook gesê dat die high tensile bolts makliker "shear".  Nou dan die vraag - is dit dan geskik vir 'n hak waar die gewig tog afwaarts druk of sit ek die pot hier mis. 

Askuus vir die gemengde taal maar toe ek nog kon leer was alle handboeke in Engels.

Miskien moet ek dit op 'n nuwe draad vra sodat meer mense dit miskien sien.

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20 Feb 2018 @ 19:57:08 pm
OOM JEEP
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Hierdie is n taamlike omstrede onderwerp. Ruk terug het almal my gekruisig oor die stainless boute.
Ek het gaan check en gevind dat stainless redelik makliker "rek" op die thread.
Dws. Dis nie wenslik om stainless weer en weer gebruik nie. Dit behoort eenkeer vasgetoque te word en nie sommer weer en weer nie. Ook is die nm waarde van stainless n biki minder as 8.8 nm high tensile boute. Verskille is egter min.
Wat die afwaartse druk betref gaan dit nie noodwendig oor did boute nie masr oor die oppervlakte wat teen mekaar druk. Dws twee plat oppervlaktes wat styf teen mekasr gebout word is dus sterker omrede die boute net die twee aanmekasr hou en die wrywing en lugleegte tussen die twee eintlik dit aanmekaar hou.
Onthou die ou-ou advertensie van "vasvat" waar twee plat plate aanmekaar geplak word en dan nbulldozer op gehys word. Oky die sydelinkse kragte is biki anders maar tog daar.
Die gewone boute "rek" te maklik en dus kan dit nie gebruik word nie. Mooi taal... trek die bal weg van die hak van die trekstang, dan is die afwaartse druk direk op die boute en die twee plat oppervlaktes nie meer n faktor nie.

Sjoe, eisch, weet nie eintlik om dit beter te verduidelik in verstaanbare taal nie. Maar dit gaan beslis oor trek sterkte en dus die chemiese samestelling van die staal... hoeveelheid koolstof, mangaan inhoud en of die staal se molukilere samestelling genormaliseer en getemper was.
I love camping all year round
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20 Feb 2018 @ 20:12:22 pm
HM
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Die bietjie wat ek kan onthou uit my jare in die staalbedryf is die "shear strength" van 'n  bout is omtrent 60% van sy "tensile strength". Alhoewel die grade 8 bout "harder" is, is sy "shear strength" steeds beter as 'n grade 5 bout by voorbeeld.

The Happy Campers.
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20 Feb 2018 @ 20:28:14 pm
OOM JEEP
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Dankie Hendrik
Die punt wat ek eintlkk wou maak is dat die bout nie "mag" rek nie. Dws die 8.8 boute rek nie maklik nie en dit hou die twee plat oppervlaktes styf teen mekaar, waar die gewone boute dit nie gaan doen nie.
Die kragte wat uitgeoefen word wanneer die sleepsel beweeg is dus direk op die boute om die twee plat oppervlaktes teen mekaar te hou.
(Sover ek kan onthou is die "sterkte" op die trekbal 20 ton alvorens dit breek.)
I love camping all year round
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21 Feb 2018 @ 00:05:37 am
Anonymous
I definately agree, if you're going to get bolts go for the gr8.8
Die shear strength of m16 gr8.8 bolts is 6 ton each. So 12 ton vir for 2.
So you won't be shearing them off with a caravan.

You should torque them to 160 Nm.

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21 Feb 2018 @ 00:37:05 am
Danie-SLK
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Chris could you perhaps give the shear strength of the  M16 gr 5.8 bolts as well.

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21 Feb 2018 @ 06:22:07 am
Leon
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The fact that you had a great tow with the nose slightly up was due to the weight distribution in the van and the nose up did not have any effect.  There wil come a time when that weight is not packed that evenly and the nose up will have a bad effect on the towing stability.

I know what the weight of a "kas bier" that shifted during towing can do with tow stability.

Thus if I were your I would get a dropplate just to get the combination atleast level.

Sonder Jesus is ek niks! ! ! !
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21 Feb 2018 @ 07:49:22 am
Anonymous

The fact that you had a great tow with the nose slightly up was due to the weight distribution in the van and the nose up did not have any effect.  There wil come a time when that weight is not packed that evenly and the nose up will have a bad effect on the towing stability.

I know what the weight of a "kas bier" that shifted during towing can do with tow stability.

Thus if I were your I would get a dropplate just to get the combination atleast level.


Was thinking about this yesterday, Most likely if you are nose up weight will tend to shift backwards while you drive, with the nose down it will shift forward. In general weight forward is better for stability.

In terms of stability, I think it is like the advice generally applied to stabilisers also applies. It is never needed (or a problem) until something bad happens. With the nose up you could have the caravan pushing up the back of the tow vehicle if; the caravan is heavy in the back, the tow vehicle is light in the back, and/or there is a problem with the brakes on the caravan. (the brakes normally causes the nose to fall, but if for some reason they do not work they will lift the back of the car when you brake if the van is nose up. Also nose up means the weight is more likely to shift backwards). Would you like to find out for the first time that your combination is unstable under heavy braking when you have to make an emergency stop?
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21 Feb 2018 @ 08:00:57 am
Jan Meyer
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Dankie Johan. Nee het net gevra uit belangstelling van wat ek geleer is in my jong jare as vakleerling en later ambagsman. 

  

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21 Feb 2018 @ 08:29:49 am
Anonymous

Chris could you perhaps give the shear strength of the  M16 gr 5.8 bolts as well.



They should be about 5/8 th's of the Gr 8.8, about 7.5 ton shear.
Fastening torque around 100Nm.

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21 Feb 2018 @ 09:19:48 am
Elleebee
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the thickest i can get is 16mm. i have 2 X 10mm drop plates. is bolting them together a very stupid idea? or just a stupid idea
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21 Feb 2018 @ 10:33:45 am
Anonymous
the thickest i can get is 16mm. i have 2 X 10mm drop plates. is bolting them together a very stupid idea? or just a stupid idea


This is a case where 1+1 does not equal 2.
The double plates will allow some sliding between the tow plates when the plate is bending due to the load of the caravan.
Without going into detail on how I know this, a 6 hole 16mm plate will bend about 1.5mm under very heavy braking. While the two 10mm plates in combonation will bend around 2.5mm.

So there is a disadvantage to using the 2 10mm plates, and the combination of the two plates isn't really any stronger than just the 16mm plate.
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21 Feb 2018 @ 13:06:25 pm
Anonymous
the bigger one is an 8 hole. my car does not have the standard towbar fitting - it has the Thule and only has 1 set of holes. i also use the Trapezium Len says that for my combination the 16mm will do. there is no 20mm in 6 hole. and absolutely no one except Roadque in Pretoria has a 16mm 6 hole so i will get one there.


thank you all very much for your input


Outdoorwarehouse sells 16mm 6 hole plates at R265
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21 Feb 2018 @ 13:10:12 pm
Elleebee
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Outdoorwarehouse sells 16mm 6 hole plates at R265
called the Woodmead branch - it is a 10mm.
i got from Roadque 16mm for r226
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21 Feb 2018 @ 13:11:57 pm
Anonymous
OK, but the one in my garage I measured this morning was 16mm, or I measure wrong...
"Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most."

;-)
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21 Feb 2018 @ 13:13:44 pm
Elleebee
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the person i spoke to supposedly measured. said 10 mm
. but i have a new one now.
thanks again for all the advice
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03 Mar 2018 @ 13:15:05 pm
Hannes
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Ek sleep met Mazda Drifter wat n baie hoee standaard haak het. Ek gebruik 6gat dropplaat met n versteeking. My Caravette 6b staan steeds effe neus op. Ek gebruik yelliwblade stabilizer en ervaar geen swaai of ander beheer probleme nie. Enigste opsie wat vir my oorbly in om karavaan re lig net spacer en 14" wiele.
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04 Mar 2018 @ 16:48:00 pm
Leon
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It is a known fact that towing a level caravan or slightly nose down is the best way for towing stability.

Your combination is now stable even with the slight nose up tow but sometime in future you will need to load something extra due to more people camping with you thats when you will get the surprise.  Then the combination will not be so stable any more.

My suggestion is get it right, then all is well in future. But still its every man for himself and you could do what is right in your opinion.

Sonder Jesus is ek niks! ! ! !
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