English & Afrikaans Forums
Total Topics: 22 237
Total Replies: 248 893
Total Views: 83 115 505
topics: 988
replies: 13 956
views: 3 252 827
In this section we discuss industry businesses and product reviews.

Caravan specs

replies: 17
views: 745
09 Apr 2020 @ 21:59:48 pm
Badger
Platinum Member
92% Profile Strength
Posts: 387
Joined: 28 Jun 2017
Experience: 64 years

We have seen so many times on this forum problems coming up regarding the actual weight at the front of the "A" frame at the tow hitch.

Is there any way that the manufacturer could be obliged to state this weight on the Data Plate along with ,Tare and G W M .  There are legal limits.    It appears however that certain manufacturers have overlooked this point in some cases.   Another area where some manufacturers have misled customers is by understating there product specs, for reasons known only to themselves. ( We can only imagine. ) In some cases the manufacturer has upgraded specs without any change whatsoever to the construction or components of the Vehicle.

 

👍
0
💔
0
😮
0
🙂
0
10 Apr 2020 @ 10:43:53 am
Nabro
Platinum Member
100% Profile Strength
Posts: 309
Joined: 27 Jan 2015
Experience: 14 years

The weight on the A frame is too dependant on the distribution of weight inside the caravan. By moving the same things around in the van you can get vastly different readings on the towball weight. That is my guess as to why it is not stated.

👍
0
💔
0
😮
0
🙂
0
10 Apr 2020 @ 14:46:50 pm
Swanie
Moon Member
100% Profile Strength
Posts: 731
Joined: 26 May 2013
Experience: 46 years

Note:

Noseweight: The mass of a caravan or trailer measured at the tow hitch. By law in South Africa it has to be between 25 kg and 100 kg.

Manufacturer specifications: Reg 239 and Reg 245

• GA – Gross axle mass
• GAU – Gross axle unit mass
• GVM – Gross vehicle mass
• GCM – Gross combination mass
• GKM – Gross kingpin mass
• T – Tare
• P/D – power of engine – kilowatts

Tare

In relation to a motor vehicle this means the mass of such a vehicle ready to travel on a road and includes the mass of:
A) Any spare wheel and all other accessories and equipment supplied by the manufacturer as standard for the particular model of motor vehicle.
B) Anything that is a permanent part of the structure of the vehicle.
C) Anything attached to such a vehicle so as to form a structural alteration of a permanent nature.

It does not include:

• The mass of fuel
• Anything attached to such a vehicle which is not part of the nature referred to in paragraph (B) or (C).

Gross combination mass

In relation to a motor vehicle which is used to draw any other motor vehicle, this means the maximum mass of any combination of motor vehicles (including the drawing vehicle) and load as specified by the manufacturer thereof or, in the absence of such specification, as determined by the registering authority.

“Gross vehicle mass”, in relation to a motor vehicle, means the maximum mass of such vehicle and its load as specified by the manufacturer thereof or, in the absence of such specification, as determined by the registering authority.

Kom ons gaan kamp
👍
0
💔
0
😮
0
🙂
0
11 Apr 2020 @ 17:23:49 pm
Badger
Platinum Member
92% Profile Strength
Posts: 387
Joined: 28 Jun 2017
Experience: 64 years

Hello Swanie,

Thanks for a most comprehensive reply, the one area you mention " Gross Kingpin Weight "

is one I have not yet come across, I will have a look at my rig to see if I can find it.

There are two very interesting discussions on this forum, they are " onvrklaarbare neus gewig" and " Nose weight debate and Aircon".  Coupled to this, if you go to uncle Google and look at position of axle on a trailer, you come up with some very interesting questions.

Looking at the side veiw of various caravans there does not appear  to be standard for positioning Axles. This could point to an explanation for unexplained nose weight.

I put this subject forward as an avenue for my learning more as I find it of great interest, being directly to the four basic machine types.

Looking forward to your input.

 

 

👍
0
💔
0
😮
0
🙂
0
11 Apr 2020 @ 17:45:23 pm
Kanneman
Jupiter Member
96% Profile Strength
Posts: 1461
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Experience: 55 years

When I was a child my Dad built a two wheel trailer to tow behind the farm bakkie.

He enquired and I can distinctly remeber the specs for stable towing he got. It was that the axle should be one inch behind the centre of the body for every foot of body length.

When I bought my first Venter lugguage trailer in 1971 I checked those specs and the Ventertjie was built exactly to those specs.

I do not buy the distribution of load affecting nose weight idea. If the manufacturer built it according to legislation and the weigh bridge guys find it to be out of specs they will simply do what they do with trucks being overloaded on the front or rear axle, but not over weight in total mass. They will ask you to move the load to get it back in specs and send you on your way. However, if the manufacturer built it with an inherent overweight nose, you will have to leave your caravan at the weigh bridge until it is remedied. (It may mean removing an air con and spare wheel from in the front of the axle).

Be who you are and say how you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
👍
1
💔
0
😮
0
🙂
0
11 Apr 2020 @ 20:38:59 pm
HM
Neptune Member
85% Profile Strength
Posts: 4298
Joined: 06 Jan 2009
Experience: 47 years

I stand corrected. If pulled over at a weighbridge they do not unhook the trailer/caravan to determine the weight on the tow hitch. Yes, each axle is checked and combined gross mass is checked.

Check this link regarding the positioning of axles Badger.

https://mechanicalelements.com/trailer-axle-position/

Here is another one.

https://www.etrailer.com/faq-where-to-position-trailer-axle.aspx

There are plenty more but the principle is the same.

The Happy Campers.
👍
0
💔
0
😮
0
🙂
0
12 Apr 2020 @ 10:09:22 am
Fred
Uranus Member
100% Profile Strength
Posts: 3234
Joined: 09 Mar 2016
Experience: 52 years

Die formule wat jy noem, maak sin Chris.  Die idee is duidelik dat met 'n egaliggelaaide sleepwa, bietjie meer gewig aan die voorkant moet wees om 'n positiewe gewig op die haak te verseker.  Ek is nie so seker dat karavaanvervaardigers die beginsel baie getrou volg nie.  Verskeie lede het al genoem hoe swaar hulle karavane op die haak leun, maar soos iemandin hierdie draad of dalk in 'n ander een genoem het, kan daar nie voorsiening gemaak word vir die laaipatreoon van die gebruiker nie.  Die tyd, 1984, toe ons ons Sprite Supersport gekoop het, was die karavaan, asook sy vierbed boetie wat ek nie meer die naam van kan onthou nie, as goed gebalanseerde karavane beskou. Die neusgewig was veilig binne die 75 Kg maksimum.  Die vyfbed eenheid, waar die as heelwat verder agtertoe geskuif was, het besonder swaar op die haak geleun, maar hulle was beskou as besonder stabiel op die pad. Ek stem dus saam dat die formule sin maak, want dis 'n kwessie van stabiliteit afweeg teen praktiese gewigsverspreiding.  Dit lyk vir my hoe verder die as agtertoe gesluif word, hoe stabiler sleep die wa, maar hoe swaarder word nie gewig op die haak.  Die formule verseker dus dat beide aspekte sover moontlik gedek word.

Het is beter rijk te leven dan rijk te sterven
👍
0
💔
0
😮
0
🙂
0
12 Apr 2020 @ 20:57:05 pm
Badger
Platinum Member
92% Profile Strength
Posts: 387
Joined: 28 Jun 2017
Experience: 64 years

If you were to read the posting  " onverklaarbare neus gewig" it would make clear my suspicion that the positioning of the axle could be seen as suspect on some caravans, and why I raise the question.

On larger trailers it is not uncommon to have an adjustable axle to compensate for differing loads placed at different positions on a trailer and in so doing improve stability.

Many of the vehicles used today for towing smaller caravans are "Front Wheel Drive", any excessive weight placed on the tow hitch of the car would result in loss of Traction as well as reduce the control of the steering.

Surely an increase of 25% + on the tow hitch of the towing vehicle can only have a negative effect on the stability of the rig, especially if the car is a front wheel drive.

The other specs ie.  Tare, GWM, GKL or whatever could be spot on, but if you have excessive load on the tow hitch you could still be in big trouble, maybe not at the weigh bridge but with your insurance in the case of an accident, or even worse.

Read on Internet.

"How to work out position of Axle on Caravan"

👍
0
💔
0
😮
0
🙂
0
12 Apr 2020 @ 23:57:24 pm
Relaxed Camper
Luhman 16 Member
100% Profile Strength
Posts: 16902
Joined: 05 May 2015
Experience: 7 years

Dis wat ek altyd sê....as my wa leeg reeds oor die maksimum gewig weeg, is die as verkeerde plek. 

WAARSKUWING:

Kampeer is aansteeklik en verslawend 😁
👍
0
💔
0
😮
0
🙂
0
13 Apr 2020 @ 07:46:22 am
Leon
Luhman 16 Member
96% Profile Strength
Posts: 15971
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Experience: 56 years

Na ek die draad gelees het, het ek 'n toets gaan doen op van die sleepwaens wat in ons kompleks staan.

En nie op een van hulle is die beginsel van die as moet een duim vir elke voet agter die middel van die S/wa geposisioneer wees, toegepas nie.

So dit wil vir my voorkom volgens dit wat ons hier op die forum gese word die Sleepwa vervaardigers wat ek dan nou gemeet het nie 'n idee het wat hulle doen nie.

My opinie is daar is 'n groot verskil tussen verskeie sleepwaens.  En dit hang af waarvoor die ding gebou word.  Kom ons vat 'n bagasie S/wa.  Daar wil ek die as in die middel van die bagasie ruim plaas sodat die beginsel van egalige gewig verspreiding deur die gebruiker gehandhaaf kan word.  Dan as jy die lengte van die A-raam  wat by kom in ag neem sal die "As" verder terug wees tov die totale lengte van die S/wa.

Hier verskil dit teenoor 'n sleepwa vir 'n boot.................

In 'n boot S/wa se geval word die as ongeveer 'n derde afstand van die agterkant van die totale S/wa lengte geplaas bloot vir die feit dat 80% van die boot se gewig is die enjin/s.

Daar is ook 'n wesenlike verskil tussen 'n vrag sleep wa en 'n gespesifiseerde sleepwa.  Kom ons gebruik 'n motorfiets S/wa as voorbeeld.  Die vervaardiger het nie beheer oor watse grote motorfiets elkekeer op die S/wa gelaai word nie.  So in die geval word die as effe verder na agter geskuif nagalang van die maks vrag wat daai spesifieke S/wa mag dra.  Dit verseker 'n stabiele sleep vermoe eerder as 'n neusgewig wat reg gaan wees.

So as ek dit in oe skou neem, moet die as se posisie eintlik bepaal word deur wat op daai onderstel gelaai gaan word.  Kom ons vat 'n karavaan as voorbeeld.  Die Classique,  Penta en Palma se "Footprint" of eerder basis is almal dieselfde groote.  Maar die uitleg van elke wa verskil redelik van mekaar.

Moet daat dan nou 'n as posisie verskil wees tussen hulle?  Seker ja................ maar dis nie uit 'n produksie oogpunt aanvaarbaar nie. Want dis nie net die onderstel wat 'n verandering in vervaardiging het nie maar ook kant panele, vloer panele om maar twee voorbeelde te noem.  Dit op die ou einde is koste drywers.

Dit is makliker vir 'n Maatskappy soos Quantum om 'n as te skuif as wat dit is vir Jurgens Ci om 'n as op 'n onderstel te skuif.

So daar is baie ander dinge wat 'n rol speel as net 'n formule.

Sonder Jesus is ek niks! ! ! !
👍
0
💔
0
😮
0
🙂
0
13 Apr 2020 @ 07:48:09 am
Leon
Luhman 16 Member
96% Profile Strength
Posts: 15971
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Experience: 56 years

O ja en dan as 'n wa nie 'n klompie luxuries in het nie, verkoop hy nie.  En daai wil he is ons die gebruiker en die vervaardiger probeer maar sy bes om die produk aantreklik te maak.

Sonder Jesus is ek niks! ! ! !
👍
0
💔
0
😮
0
🙂
0
13 Apr 2020 @ 20:33:13 pm
Chuck Norris
Alpha Centauri Member
100% Profile Strength
Posts: 9408
Joined: 13 Jan 2014
Experience: 40 years

Ek hoop die classique sin is in plek na al die gebakel aangesien hy nou kort uit die fabriek kom.

 

As jy wil he jou drome moet waar word, moet jy eers wakker word.

Die jonge Fransies. (Parys - Frankryk)
👍
0
💔
0
😮
0
🙂
0
13 Apr 2020 @ 20:57:37 pm
Relaxed Camper
Luhman 16 Member
100% Profile Strength
Posts: 16902
Joined: 05 May 2015
Experience: 7 years

Ek hoop die classique sin is in plek na al die gebakel aangesien hy nou kort uit die fabriek kom.

 

Wonder ook soms oor daai een. My Swing is blykbaar ook nie reg gewees nie. 2020 modelle weeg steeds dieselfde en uitleg is nog steeds dieselfde?🤔

WAARSKUWING:

Kampeer is aansteeklik en verslawend 😁
👍
0
💔
0
😮
0
🙂
0
13 Apr 2020 @ 21:03:59 pm
Chuck Norris
Alpha Centauri Member
100% Profile Strength
Posts: 9408
Joined: 13 Jan 2014
Experience: 40 years

Wonder ook soms oor daai een. My Swing is blykbaar ook nie reg gewees nie. 2020 modelle weeg steeds dieselfde en uitleg is nog steeds dieselfde?🤔

Ek het hulle by die handelaar gevra, maar ja......

By karavaan buite lug skou het ek gevra oor die exclusive, en ja.......

 

As jy wil he jou drome moet waar word, moet jy eers wakker word.

Die jonge Fransies. (Parys - Frankryk)
👍
0
💔
0
😮
0
🙂
0
14 Apr 2020 @ 16:46:49 pm
Badger
Platinum Member
92% Profile Strength
Posts: 387
Joined: 28 Jun 2017
Experience: 64 years

Greetings,

There are a lot of very good points made in in most of the comments above I do not accept with them all but can not dispute the most of them. I just have difficulty in understanding why the design engineers who decide on the placement of the axle and all of the fittings  and accessories inside the van, could wind up with a Hitch weight that is way over limits.

As mentioned by Hendrik earlier there are several sites which suggest basically the same method for calculating the position of the axle. 

Interestingly on one of these sites there is a U Tube video showing how to adjust the position of the axle on a large trailer to accommodate heavier loading at the rear of the trailer.

This would not be practical on a standard caravan, however the correct placement of the axle, all the furniture and fittings, and accurate anticipation of all loading spaces for tents, poles chairs etc. would go a long way to eliminating any problem with hitch weight

👍
0
💔
0
😮
0
🙂
0
14 Apr 2020 @ 17:07:02 pm
HM
Neptune Member
85% Profile Strength
Posts: 4298
Joined: 06 Jan 2009
Experience: 47 years

What Jurgens and other builders should have considered was to build the proto type complete and add all loose items such as spare wheel gas bottles etc. Then determine the centre balance point and move the axle back until a ball weight of 80kg is reached.

 

The Happy Campers.
👍
0
💔
0
😮
0
🙂
0
14 Apr 2020 @ 17:30:49 pm
Danie-SLK
Pluto Member
92% Profile Strength
Posts: 4795
Joined: 08 Sep 2009
Experience: 43 years

What Jurgens and other builders should have considered was to build the proto type complete and add all loose items such as spare wheel gas bottles etc. Then determine the centre balance point and move the axle back until a ball weight of 80kg is reached.

 

For the lay man the centre balance point(centroid) is something I doubt we can calculate so for this one would need to supply all the weights and positions. Manufacturers are surely using it so still a mystery if not deliberate why the nose weight is not within the legal value. I am also not sure if we do in fact know the axles are not positioned correctly based on the centroid position. I for sure cannot answer it.

 

👍
0
💔
0
😮
0
🙂
0
14 Apr 2020 @ 20:05:22 pm
Badger
Platinum Member
92% Profile Strength
Posts: 387
Joined: 28 Jun 2017
Experience: 64 years

Unfortunately I am not an engineer, so to me it will also have to remain an unanswered Question.

One thing does however become clear, one has to take care when loading ones van, especially when towing with a front wheel drive car.

👍
0
💔
0
😮
0
🙂
0
Reply to Topic
Anonymous
Sign In Required
View First
Stay home and stay safe, visit the official website: sacoronavirus.co.za